Would be good with some talk back from the Mustang developers - Java SE (Archived)

Some "what do you mean", "this is crap", "this would be very hard to implement", "this sounds good", "Concider it added" (my favourite one) - comments by actual Sun Mustang developers would make us posters feel more "interacted with". :)
Cheers,
Mikael

Sure, the forum just started so it didn't attract significant amount of developers yet. I can't promise for other than desktop areas, but you may at least be sure that your ideas will be heard and won't live in the void.
As for "Consider it added" - there is a big distance between an idea and a feature, and you know the process - file an RFE, vote for it, justify why it is important for millions of developers - and you may "consider it added" :)

Hi, are you with Sun?  It's hard to tell who are and who are not with Sun. They (you) should have a _Sun in your nick name or something.
Keep up the good work anyway. :)
Cheers,
Mikael Grev
ps. I'm in a very boring phase in my project a.t.m so I might just post a little too much, as an escape... ;)

I am "with Sun"

Denismo:  I always appreaciate when new blood starts new initiatives.  But doubtfull as ever, I have to ask how much of a corporate backing you have?  Are the suggestions here
a) going to be read by actual developers
b) their managers as well
c) when both like it how likely is it they can convince management to actually follow the asked path?
See;  java.net did not bring around much more interaction between developers and the community; I surely doubt any technological directions were changed.  Why should we feel this forum will?

I have asked several managers, tech leads and engineers to watch this forum for ideas and comment on them.
I am AWT Tech Lead, so you may at least expect your ideas to be heard in AWT/Swing teams.

> I have asked several managers, tech leads and
> engineers to watch this forum for ideas and comment
> on them.
> I am AWT Tech Lead, so you may at least expect your
> ideas to be heard in AWT/Swing teams.
Thank you for responding to my question in a fair and open manner.  I do notice that you only answered part of my question;  perhaps you missed it (I should not ask that many questions in one post..)
Management obviously thinks open communication is in order; the question that remains is how much the questions and ideas asked here _can_ be followed up.  Are issues brought up here a priority for management?
I feel very unsatisfied with the amount of public-relations on javadesktop.org in contrast to the actual results in the latest Java release.

I am sure you understand that no single source of information for us can be a priority. We consider them all together - bugs, rfes, votes, JDC comments, forums, feedback  messages, JavaOne interactions, customer problems, personal relations, JSRs, etc. - this all builds up a huge source of objective information for consideration.

Related

Who Was Your Mentor?

In his Time Out and Thanks essay for Oracle Magazine Tom Kyte looks back on his career and makes this observation:  I think the most important contributing factor to my success comes down to one word: mentor.Tom then describes how a colleague ten years his junior passed along insight and best practices that Tom went on to pay forward over the past thirty years.  It's a great story, and it's one that surely isn't uncommon in any profession. But how often do you get the opportunity to publicly acknowledge the people who have directly influenced your career? Not often enough, I suspect. So let's rectify that situation with this discussion.  Who is the one person who had -- or continues to have -- the greatest influence on your IT career? Was it an educator? A manager? A colleague? Who's the individual most responsible for sending you down the path that brought you to where you are today, and whose influence continues to shape where you're going tomorrow? Do you still seek advice from your mentor? And let's take it a step further. Are you now mentoring anyone? What are you doing to pay it forward?  Share your story. Your responses will form the basis for an upcoming article in Oracle Magazine. Selected responses will be quoted with full attribution. --Bob Rhubart-Oracle  
Tom's article was a great read, and it is always good to see those who help us get open, public recognition.  For me I would say I've had short period when he was given an apprentice to keep occupied. At this stage I knew my ABCs of programming, but certainly not developed the 'artistry' and good practises. Rather than taking the easy route of giving me simple designs to code up, he would take time out to challenge me with problems - through figuring out the answers I mastered the art.  20+ years on I still reflect on the day we discussed an idea which he thought wasnt possible to solve, and he challenged me to prove otherwise.  Two days later, problem solved with an elegant solution reducing what had been several thousand lines of code to less than a couple of hundred. That experience has informed my outlook going forward. Since then I may not have been a mentor, but always taken time to help people and answer questions - after all what is the value of knowledge if you don't share it?  As I have become more increasingly specialised, and have fewer people wanting to follow my specialism I have turned to blogging to share ideas & insights with a wider community.  This is has extended to technical reviewing of articles for the UK Oracle User Group and books through Packt and other publishers.  What Tom didnt mention is the role of mentoring and sharing knowledge is deeply rewarding. Seeing the best bit of my own software in action doesn't beat the sense of achievement of seeing someone listen, challenge & apply what you have offered them. Even more so when you learn something yourself in the process. Phil Wilkinswww.mp3monster.org / blog.mp3monster.org
Thanks for sharing your story, Phil!
I hadn't read Tom's essay until now, but I was truly moved by it. He came to Mexico City for OTN Tour a couple of years ago, and the quantity of local people who wanted to see him, thank him and talk to him was really amazing. I do believe mentoring is instrumental for professional success, and as Phil just said, once you achieve some sort of it, sharing knowledge and helping others is one of the most rewarding endeavors one can experience. In my case, I owe a lot to my mentors, who mostly have been a few colleagues; with these people we believe in each other and cheer for each other, which always keeps you going and striving for success. Mexico in particular is a country where many people usually feel threatened, unsettled and even irritated by each other's achievements, which obviously makes professional life difficult and can be utterly frustrating. Lately, in my particular case, I've found a great outlet in the Oracle ACE community, where I've been able to interact with wonderful persons who have boosted my career and dreams; this guys I also consider as mentors. Me and a few more are also trying to give something back and change the local culture a little by leading some efforts, like for example reviving the Mexican user group and bringing together people not only in Mexico but also in whole Latin america so they can share experiences, help each other, keep learning and growing. Cheers Arturo https://soamythbusters.wordpress.comhttp://oracletechnocore.blogspot.mx/

public static void main(String[] args) { /* again */ }

My feedback, sent via the link on the left. I'd be interested to see the responses of others. If you have the time and inclination, perhaps you could send me a copy by email so that it survives the inevitable ThreadDeathException
---
To whoever it may concern,
"Upgrades" to the Sun Java forums are a byword for incompetence amongst the regular contributors. If you look at the latest fracas, you will find that the loudest complaints were made by those who contribute the most to the technical discussions at hand. This is no coincidence. Those who invest most in the community are the most affronted when it is abused by the powers that be.
The problem has several parts, but I think it would be fair to group them into liaison problems, and technical problems. In view of this, I would appreciate it if someone in a position to speak for Sun on these issues would take the time to respond, publicly (i.e. in the Forum Maintenance section) on the following points:
Liaison:
Why do Sun not communicate more fully with community members before making sweeping changes? Why is feedback from the community so often ignored? If feedback from the community is not ignored, why do you not make the aggregate feedback public?
A case in point, natuarally, is the recent upgrade. The community were "polled" for the prefered cosmetic re-design. No option was given for NO cosmetic re-design. Many forum users responded via the Feedback link to complain that no design was wanted. And yet the design was changed anyway. Were most votes in favour of a re-design? Is this still true if feedback against is counted as a "vote" against? Was the most "popular" design the one ultimately selected?
Why do Sun not appoint moderators from the user community? At one point I received feedback from Sun that there were "legal" difficulties that were being looked into. This was several years ago, and yet nothing has apparently been done about it. Sun is a large company with many lawyers; surely they can achieve something so trivial? If the Javaranch forums can manage a community moderation scheme, one would think that a technology company as large as Sun could solve the same problem.
Why will Sun not accept that the natural place for feedback on the Sun Java Forums is in the forums. The feedback link has its place for raising some delicate issues. The notable reasons not to use this approach are:
(a) Your personnel do not, can not, or will not, monitor a feedback forum on even a daily or weekly basis to monitor for problems. This is simply not acceptable. If it is not worth allocating resources to this task, then the forums are not worth maintaining.
(b) You do not wish the issues raised to be made public. This is not acceptable. The forums are used by the public, and they will raise and discuss issues in public. If you prevent them from doing so in an environment in which you have editorial control, then they will do so elsewhere. Besides, there are advantages to having technically astute developers discuss the possible causes of technical problems. And surely it helps if the bugs are catalogued once, instead of being reported numerous independent times?
Technical
Why do Sun not block persistent offenders at the network level? The user commonly known as "Goldie" and currently using the "Stoic" account has been trolling the forums for more than a year. He has had tens, if not hundreds of accounts deleted, and hundreds if not thousands of posts deleted. Clearly deleting forum entities has no effect - even the signup email address is disregarded, so it is trivial to create a new account. Please, consider instating confirmation emails, OR take advantage of Jive's built in IP blocking facility, OR explain why you won't take one of these approaches.
Why do Sun not manage releases better? Releases should be managed on three tiers of hardware: Test, for establishing that the application is capable of working, Staging for replicating the production environment, and Production which is NEVER touched except as an application is rolled out from staging to production. Failures on a release should ALWAYS be rolled back IMMEDIATELY to the last known good version. Bug fixing should ONLY be carried out on the Test environments; never on Staging or Production. Regression suites should be used to ensure that fixed bugs do not reoccur. Usability testing should be used to ensure that enhancements really are enhancements. Sun Microsystems are the leader in the field of large software management and roll out, and yet the Sun Forums are managed less professionally than their amateur competition.
Conclusion
The above are the questions we would all like to see answered. The Sun Java Forums are a magnificent attractive force towards the Java technologies. Hundreds of new Java developers post questions every day. Please, don't waste the good will that the forums generate by alienating the very users who make them a worthwhile resource. Or if you intend not to manage them, please terminate them and let us concentrate our efforts where they will be appreciated. 
While this thread may not be long for this world, it's certainly well-written, and likely to be more well-received than the more strongly-worded flames.
~ 
likely to be more well-received than the
more strongly-worded flames.Oh I sent them too ;-)
You know, I actually kind of doubt it. The cycle goes:
1. Mismanaged change
2. Developers complain vociferously
3. Sun promise to communicate more/better/etc.
4. Initial promising signs
5. Sun's commitment to (3) reduces to a murmer
6. Repeat.
One possibility is that the people who matter (management) never see the problems here. Last time I tried to get the attention of anyone who I thought might be able to help us.
I sent appropriately mildly phrased emails to a dozen or so prominent Sun Java personalities. A few replied with encouragement and promised to do what they could. There seems to have been some reaction from the Sun people (I forget what specifically), and then it all tailed off and we're back where we started.
I really would prefer them to shut down the forums, rather than keep them going like this. I think maybe it would be better to make a contribution somewhere where that was valued. But as I say, at the moment I still marginally prefer the Sun forums to the competition - probably just because I'm more used to them. Another mess up like this, though...
Dave. 
Considering all the forum software out there that is far superior to this you'd think they'd learn something from it. It's not like they're sailing into uncharted territory here. 
> Considering all the forum software out there that is
far superior to this you'd think they'd learn
something from it. It's not like they're sailing
into uncharted territory here.
As I understand it, this is powered by Jive forum software, and I don't believe it's written by Sun. 
As I understand it, this is powered by Jive forum
software, and I don't believe it's written by Sun.I know and while I don't particularly like Jive that doesn't change the fact that it's (presumably) Sun employees butchering it and doing stupid things. 
Well said Dave.
As I understand it, this is powered by Jive forum
software, and I don't believe it's written by Sun.If the logo in the corner is to be believed. ;-)
I wonder if they are using a very old release, or highly customized version?
[url #" style="display: block; background-image: url('http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7452/42uh.gif'); height: 20px; width: 20px]
Ohh, that cat is out the box.
Message was edited by:
mlk :( 
> Ohh, that cat is out the box.
Yep; I reported it a while back. Hopefully it'll do some good... 
> Ohh, that cat is out the box.
Yep; I reported it a while back. Hopefully it'll do
some good...Mm, can't edit posts after a reply. That is better, less fun but better.
Maybe the JS bugs will go when they change the colour scheme to include pink and a javascript based mouse trails thingie?

Growing discontent with Java

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I didn't see a better place. It's really addressed to Sun.
In case you haven't noticed, there is a quickly growing groundswell of dissatisfaction over J2EE (especially EJB) and against Sun's licensing practices.
Having used EJB in a number of projects myself, I can wholeheartedly understand the frustrations people have with EJB. I would probably not use it in another project.
Sun has enjoyed a lot of its momentum over the last 7 or 8 years due to the enthusiastic support of its programmers. It should care very much when those programmers are displeased. It should make efforts to at least appear to listen and react to concerns raised by its development community.
Many of us who have backed Java for so long would rather see Sun address these problems now than have Java (and Sun) displaced by other technologies.
The time to respond is now, but the response needs to be carefully considered. If you come across as too defensive, you will further alienate an important group of people who are now questioning how much you support them. 
could you please describe the licensing practice -- for those of us who are not familiar with it ? 
The licensing complaints are mostly from the open source camps. I think there's a large overlap in developers friendly to the open source efforts and Java programmers.
Anyway, some information here:
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/10/10/osjava.html
http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=SunInterview
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jspa-position.html

What's in store for the future? Messaging 7?

Since the majority of the topics discussed in this forum are "please help" threads, I'm hoping to mix it up a bit.
Since Netscape, iPlanet, SIMS, PMDF and the rest of the SJMS lineage have produced a product that is frankly difficult to impliment and lacks features, I've wondered whether we could devise a "wish-list" of sorts and deliver it to the development team responsible, or at least the program manager.
Any chance that any of the readers here are on the dev team and could share a little insight on what we might have to look forward to? A little taste of the upcoming chilipeppers, so to speak? A little bird told me a tidbit about unified calendars and messaging, but hoping theres a lot more backend additions as well.
I think we as users/admins/integrators of this product could shed a lot of insight into the product. I make a decent living implimenting SMJS in different scenarios, but am somewhat embarassed when customers ask me about the bugs and mis-documentation. I'd sure like to be proud of the product I believe in to be the best, but at the moment I'm somewhat disheartened to explain "uh no, sorry, that's a bug". Overall, I like the product, but there needs to be a clean-up of the backend. Right now, it looks like a hodge-podge of too many products. 
Since the majority of the topics discussed in this
forum are "please help" threads, I'm hoping to mix it
up a bit.
Since Netscape, iPlanet, SIMS, PMDF and the rest of
the SJMS lineage have produced a product that is
frankly difficult to impliment and lacks features,
I've wondered whether we could devise a "wish-list"
of sorts and deliver it to the development team
responsible, or at least the program manager. Unlikely. I'm in tech support, and as far as I know, I'm the only Sun employee here.
Kristin, the product manager does read the mail group out of
http://arnold.com
though. You can subscribe to that one, and she will read it.
>
Any chance that any of the readers here are on the
dev team and could share a little insight on what we
might have to look forward to? A little taste of the
upcoming chilipeppers, so to speak? A little bird
told me a tidbit about unified calendars and
messaging, but hoping theres a lot more backend
additions as well.To the best of my knowledge, the UWC (Unified Web Client) that's already in JES 2004q2 is the direction of the future. Messaging 6.2 is currently in beta, and is scheduled for "later". No idea about 7.0,though.
>
I think we as users/admins/integrators of this
product could shed a lot of insight into the product.
I make a decent living implimenting SMJS in different
scenarios, but am somewhat embarassed when customers
ask me about the bugs and mis-documentation. I'd sure
like to be proud of the product I believe in to be
the best, but at the moment I'm somewhat disheartened
to explain "uh no, sorry, that's a bug". Overall, I
like the product, but there needs to be a clean-up
of the backend. Right now, it looks like a
hodge-podge of too many products.Well, we have fought that battle many times. The developers were overruled by marketing/management, and the existing stack was created. It's been traumatic for us, as well.

VOTE: discontinue use of the mailing list

Hi everyone
(amusing--I need to post this to both the mailing list and forum; case in point!)
I think that for now, we have to declare victory, and retreat. The gateway is simply not reliable, period.
The fact is, if you post to either the mailing list or the forum, there is no guarantee your message will be received on the other end.
Because this is pretty high-volume list, I'm suggest (sadly) that we discontinue the use of the mailing lists, and go so far as to disable them. Archives will still be available, but one should no longer be able to post to the list.
My reasoning is that, since our main goal is to simplify and enhance Swing programming, we have a secondary goal of providing support to all developers interested in the SwingLabs projects. We can only do this if we can reliably track and respond to questions. If questions, concerns or bugs are "lost" due to the failing gateway, we'll leave users out in the cold. Moreover, valuable information (responses, ideas, suggestions) may be lost in the process. We have few enough resources as it is and we can't afford to lose input and discussion in the community.
So, I'm calling for a vote to discontinue the mailing list until such time as it can be *proven* that we have a reliable gateway between forums and mailing list. This may be *never*. Although I much prefer the lists (I have great search functionality on Google mail), forums, being web-based, are accessible to the greatest number of people who may be behind corporate firewalls or restricted by corporate email policy.
It may be that in the future, we can set up forum and email software on the project servers, hosting swinglabs.org, but we shouldn't count on that.
If you vote against this, please explain how we can continue to operate as a community when we can't reliably communicate with each other.
Best regards
Patrick
+1
I only use the forum, but its disconcerting to have a suggestion completely ignored.
You never know if it was because it was completely stupid, or that it was never seen.
For those of us on the fringe I feel feedback is essential if we are to stay involved.
> IMO, this _has_ to be solved - I honestly can't
> believe that a giant like Sun is unable to build up
> pressure to have it fixed (it seems to be known that
> the culprit is a very outdated jive version on
> collab.net).
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner! :)

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